News||September 29, 2010 9:15 am

Guns cleared for Hometown Fair

South Bay Open Carry held a guns rights rally in Hermosa Beach in July. Photo by Olivia Kestin

Though the guns that will be holstered to dozens of people at this weekend’s Hometown Fair won’t be loaded, the debate over the right to carry them has been.

Despite initial warnings from Hometown Fair Board members and the Manhattan Beach Police Department that people with firearms at the event would be arrested, volunteers of South Bay Open Carry (SBOC) made it clear that they will not leave their guns at home, citing their Second Amendment right to bear arms.

A quarrel over guns at the event began with the fair board threatening arrests.

“They are opening themselves up to a huge lawsuit,” Harley Green, founder of SBOC, said on Monday. “My hope is that by Oct. 2, they will have done their research and uphold the law. If they do arrest, they will be hit with major civil rights lawsuits. There are volunteers with attorneys lined up that will sue if they are so much as touched for legally open carrying.”

The 38-year-old fair, held near American Martyrs Catholic Church, is put on by a private non-profit group of 20 residents. The city contributed roughly $48,000 to this year’s event, which will feature several games geared towards children and young adults, giving special rise for concern among the fair’s board members.

Jeffrey Phillips and his son visit the South Bay Open Carry booth at this summer’s Fiesta Hermosa. “He came with a gun to protect himself and his child,” said Harley Green, founder of SBOC. Photo courtesy of South Bay Open Carry

“The [fair] board is keenly focused on keeping their privately-run event safe for all,” said Mayor Mitch Ward, who is the City Council’s fair liaison. “The board recognizes that guns and ammo around children and adults for that matter in public events presents serious concerns.”

In recent weeks, volunteers of SBOC have threatened litigation against the city, the fair’s board and the nearby American Martyrs School, after fair officials said they would not allow guns at the event.

“The Open Carry threats of a lawsuit have been successful,” said Police Chief Rod Uyeda, who met with fair coordinators Monday night to help craft a new policy which will allow unloaded guns at the event. “They burdened people who have put this event on for 20 years with this fear of a lawsuit. These poor people are scared.”

State law permits people to openly carry unloaded firearms in public places, subject to inspection by authorities. Ammunition can be carried separately but must not be loaded into the gun. State law restricts open carry within 1,000 feet of schools, according to the Gun-Free School Zone Act adopted in 1995.

Hermosa resident Green, 24, founded SBOC in June — shortly after he purchased his first gun — to encourage the exercise of the Constitution’s right to bear arms.

Over the summer, Green organized a trash-pickup in Hermosa Beach, during which volunteers openly carried. Strapped volunteers also set up a booth at the recent Fiesta Hermosa street fair, educating the public on their rights.

Green met with Hermosa officials prior to the events.

“A big part of what we do is educate police departments,” he said. “There’s nothing illegal about carrying firearms in California. I like to meet ahead of time for their convenience.”

South Bay Open Carry volunteers (l-r) Robert Schuffman, Adrienne Lemon Green, Edward Jaffe, (unidentified), Gene McCarthy and Sergio J. A. Sánchez wore their guns to the recent Fiesta Hermosa. Photo courtesy of South Bay Open Carry

“[Hermosa Beach Police Chief Greg] Savelli personally came out to make sure the booth was in the free speech area,” he added. “It was very positive. People enjoyed hearing about rights they didn’t know they have.”

On Aug. 31, Green met with the MBPD officials to alert them that SBOC planned on open carrying at the Hometown Fair. Green was provided with a map of open carry restricted areas, which did not include fair grounds.

Fair officials later told Green that private security would be instructed to arrest anyone carrying a gun, since the right to bear arms is restricted to public property.

“The fair tried to say they rented the property and that it would be considered private property for the time that the fair is there,” he said.

Green contends that the property is not private during the duration of the fair, because the Hometown Fair has not paid rent to the city and is required to uphold local, state and federal laws, according to its land use agreement.

Citing a court ruling after attendees at a garlic festival were asked to remove gang colors, City Attorney Robert Wadden said the Hometown Fair rules “would not give rise to a violation of civil rights.”

When Green contacted the MBPD again, he was provided with a new map that highlighted portions of the fair restricted to open carry, due to a 1,000-foot radius surrounding American Martyrs Church and School.

Green insists that the church — which would extend the restricted radius onto fair grounds — is not an educational facility and shouldn’t have been included on the map.

“It’s a political game with the law to keep us from the fair.” Green said.

Uyeda said that Green was told the first map was merely a draft drawn in an attempt to quickly begin working with SBOC. He also said that the church is considered a part of the school since American Martyrs students use it for worship.

On Sept. 24, SBOC sent a letter to the school demanding it clarify that the church is not used for educational purposes.

“It’s outrageous and preposterous for a group like this to dictate and define what is Catholic religious practice or education,” said Tod Tamberg, media relations director for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, of which American Martyrs is a parish. “Religious formation is an intricate part of Catholic education all across the world and in Manhattan Beach. Where kids are is where education is — if in our church, then that’s educational at that time.”

On Tuesday, Uyeda sent out a statement to SBOC regarding the fair’s new policy:

“While they will continue to ask all Fair goers not to bring weapons to the Fair…they have informed us that they will not seek to make any arrests for unloaded firearms being brought into the Fair in violation of their ‘no weapons’ request.”

In a statement this week, fair board president Maggie Movius continued to request that weapons not be brought to the fair.

Uyeda said that open carriers who cross over into the portion of fair grounds that lie within 1,000 feet of American Martyrs will be subject to arrest by MBPD. Additional private security will be hired by the MBPD for the event.

“I deeply respect their rights to bear firearms as long as you don’t infringe on the rights of others or violate the law,” he said.

Uyeda also requests that no alcohol be consumed by armed individuals and that the group refrain from speaking to minors without parental consent.

SBOC volunteers will meet at Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf, 321 Manhattan Beach Blvd. at 1 p.m. on Saturday before heading to the fair.

“I am not asking them to bend the law or give us any special priorities,” Green said. “We just want them to support the existing state, local and federal laws.” ER

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  • matt

    The Hometown Fair is and always should be about the right of wanna-be conservative activists to push their opinions in the face of children and the sane adult public, right?

    Oh, wait – no it’s supposed to be a fair for kiddies to play and fundraisers for local charities.

    I guess I’m doing something else this weekend.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner CNReporter

    Am I the only one who has access to Google or Yahoo Maps? American Martyrs school grounds are more than 1,000 feet from the Fair location. The school is located at 1701 Laurel Avenue Manhattan Beach, CA 90266-4991 which, not surprisingly is the only address they are licensed to operate a school.

    Here is a link to a google map showing both the school and Live Oaks Park.

    http://tinyurl.com/3xsza33

    The green patch in the middle of the map is the Western edge of the school.

    Now look at the legend in the bottom right hand corner of the map, it says 500 feet. Unless one is using a ruler made out of elastic, the school grounds are over 1,000 feet away from the school. Which is well outside the school grounds.

    The Manhattan Beach Chief of Police does not have the authority to rewrite a state statute. As a General Law City they are required to obey every single statute of the state, even the few that Charter Cities are exempt from.

    If the City really thinks they are going to be able to convince a Federal Judge that they outrank both the US Constitution and the laws of California, well, Good luck with that!

  • http://www.southbayopencarry.org SouthBayOC

    Here is the CORRECT OC map for the fair. Notice how the entire fairgrounds is NOT in a school zone. Second, there is no “DRAFT” wording on this map from the police.

    http://www.southbayopencarry.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/MBOCMapAug31.pdf

  • Evan Johnson

    Cleared for Hometown Fair? Hardly.
    This group seeks to hijack an event geared toward local non profit’s and charitable organizations raising money to support community programs not some political agenda.
    No gun is EVER unloaded. This is the first rule of firearm safety.
    Instead of exercising their rights how about exercising some common sense and stage a rally or protest of their own intead of hijacking the event. Not walking amongst the soccer moms and their kids with guns.
    Oh, and for the person on your website who hopes a waitress at CPK should be shot because they denied you access with guns on, Really? A bit of an immature response to an organization legally telling you no. Respect the rights of others as well.
    Lastly, to the argument we will all be “safer” I’m disturbed by a vigilante posturing that makes you think you should interject yourself into a situation rather than have law enforcement do their job.

  • http://bit.ly/45Ynk2 Bay Area Open Carry Movement

    Keep up the great work South Bay Open Carry! We’re with you all the way!

  • Gene

    I too, using Google Earth maps, measure the distance American Martyrs School and found that the 1000 foot rule did not include the MB Fair area. Even if one would measure from the school gym it would not include any of the fair area. Clearly the MBPD is fudging on the measurement to confine the SBOC group to the “back of the bus”. After the fair is over the distance rulings created by the MBPD need to be reviewed by the courts,.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner CNReporter

    Let’s see how many people notice the many, many errors on the map? I’ll start with two.

    1) The Gun Free School Zones do not match the contour of the schools.
    2) American Martyr’s school is listed as a preschool.

    Two, was actually a bonus answer. Not only is it not a preschool (it’s K-8) but preschools don’t have gun free zones around them.

    Manhattan Beach, your tax dollars at work – Not!

  • matt

    I’m not debating the legality of it, just the appropriateness of it. You can bring a sex toy to church if you’re just carrying it and not sticking it in yourself. Doesn’t mean it’s the right time or place though.

    All they’re going to do is make a lot of people uncomfortable and drive people away from the Fair, which in turn will cause the local charities to get less money and decrease the likelihood this nice little fair will continue next year.

    It’s a deliberately aggressive action by a bunch of people who desperately want to disrupt one of the last remaining bits of “quaint” Manhattan Beach and turn it into their own little pulpit.

  • Jennifer

    Mr. Green, CN Reporter and all you other wackos. Go ahead and cross that 1000′ line around American Martyrs School and Church. The Archdiocese is telling you the Church is used for education as anyone who has gone to Catholic Church knows. Why are you trying to entrap your own group to go to jail????? I know the MBPD will show you just how comfortable their jail is. Show how brave YOU are and cross that line instead of getting other arrested. Get yourself put in jail for a felony and lose your gun rights for 10 years! Yes…that will be justice, not only in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes of the Catholic Church and God. Use common sense people. Read what your own former supporters are telling you! Keep your guns at home or simply stay away. You are not wanted. You are really hurting your own cause for selfish reasons, as your own people are telling you!

  • http://vigilanceoffreedom.zxq.net/ Jason

    The efforts of the Police Chief are highly unconstitutional. During the beginning of communications with South Bay Open Carry, he threatened arrest to anyone entering the fairgrounds with a firearm holstered as per California law. The MBPD Chief’s use of his position and department to attempt to enact political change is appalling, if not criminal.

    Even worse is the MBPD Chief and MB City Council attempts to mislead the public and paint South Bay Open Carry as a terror group. Chief Uyeda said “These poor people are scared,” and MB Mayor Ward said “The board recognizes that guns and ammo around children and adults for that matter in public events presents serious concerns.”

    What about lawful citizens carrying firearms is concerning? How can the Police Chief of a city claim he his more afraid of citizens obeying state laws by the book, rather than the gang members and criminals who commit serious felonies every day?

    I personally take offense that these elected officials would blatantly lie in proposing that I and my family would be safer if we leave our self-defense weapons behind.

  • matt

    My son is growing up in a house that has guns in it and I want my son to learn that you NEVER play with a gun. It is not a toy, nor is it a political protest sign. If you publicly demonstrate a disregard for the AWESOME power of a gun (it is after all designed to kill and nothing else) you shouldn’t be surprised when children see you and imitate your behavior.

    Please do not play with your guns in my town. Carrying around an unloaded gun for the purpose of bullying and preaching your philosophy is nothing but playing with a gun.

    You’re setting a terrible example and I for one will not allow my child to see you do it. Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair will be short the three people in my family for not outright opposing your group’s plan to play with your guns in public.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner CNReporter

    Pope Jennifer is obviously unfamiliar with Catholic Doctrine on self-defense.

    “Everyone has the right to defend his life against the attacks of an unjust aggressor. For this end he may employ whatever force is necessary and even take the life of an unjust assailant.”

    By the way, it was the Manhattan Beach Police Department who chose to use the Church as a pawn in its little game. You should be glad that Harley Green is a devout Christian. Were it up to me…

  • Tim Starr

    What if it was an Atheist Fair, and the organizers tried to ban carrying Bibles to their fair? That would be an obvious violation of First Amendment rights on public property. Or what if there was a law banning the carrying of atheist books within 1,000 feet of a church? Again, an obvious First Amendment violation.

    The Second Amendment’s just as much of a part of the Bill of Rights as the First. The Supreme Court’s said that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to carry weapons (Heller), and it fully applies to the states (McDonald). The right to keep and bear arms is a full-fledged civil right that states & municipalities must respect, no matter how much the modern-day successors to George Wallace chant “Gun control today, gun control yesterday, gun control tomorrow!”

  • JS

    keep the gun nuts and their guns out of the public space.

    just because you think you have the right doesn’t mean you can hijack an event to further your own political needs.

    open carry advocates are trying to compensate for their inadequacies by their show of trigger happy power.

  • http://vigilanceoffreedom.zxq.net/ Jason

    @matt: I’m a college student living in a house with 7 children, and each one of them knows about the power of a gun, and the dangers of misusing a gun. Every one, except for the youngest two have fired a gun and all of them know how to hold a gun safely, so if they’re ever faced with the situation of having to take a firearm away from an uneducated friend.

    Carrying a firearm is not playing with a firearm, just like driving a car isn’t playing with a car. “Playing” with a gun is illegal just as street racing with your car is illegal.

    I’ve always carried my gun, either openly or concealed, in the states where where constitutional rights are respected and protected. I don’t “play” with my gun in those states and I don’t “play” with my gun in California.

    South Bay Open Carry members go out of their way to show everyone what rights we have, and the rights that are in danger of being taken away. A gun is a self-defense tool and I, and you, will be safer because the people of South Bay Open Carry wear firearms.

  • matt

    Jason:

    The Hometown Fair is NOT the place for this stuff and no matter how many well rehearsed (and quite overused) dictums you throw out about rights (even though as you conveniently forget – I AM A GUN OWNER TOO) the fact is the fair is not an appropriate place to wave your gun around – legal, just or not.

    And I believe you DONT know about gun safety, my friend. The FIRST RULE of gun safety your daddy SHOULD have taught you is you never take your gun out unless you have to use it. You don’t twirl it on your finger, you don’t THREATEN people with it. It stays put away until you need to USE it and nothing else.

    Anyone who isn’t wise enough to know that is someone I fear carrying a gun out in public.

    You want to play cowboy, please do it in another town. You will not be welcome in Manhattan Beach I absolutely guarantee.

  • criminal

    if I am a felon, is it okay to open carry guns at the hometown fair too?

    How are the police supposed to tell a felon with an open firearm (in a place like a bank) and a “law bidding” gun nut who is sporting a gun (in a place like a bank).

  • http://vigilanceoffreedom.zxq.net/ Jason

    @matt: You’ve thrown quite a few insults and accusations at me and you’ve shown everyone your bias hatred of people. It’s difficult for me to understand how backwards you have to be to “fear” law abiding gun owners more than violent criminals.

    Your words have only served to prove my point. You insult and threaten me, and you warned that I “won’t be welcome in MB.” I hope this helps you realize the kind of person you are. Perhaps then you won’t be so spiteful and full of hate.

  • Tim Starr

    While it’s illegal for felons to have and/or carry guns, the presumption of innocence applies. In the absence of probable cause (specific articulable facts) of a crime being or about to be committed, police have no business doing background checks on people to see if they’re felons or not. And openly-carrying an unloaded gun is not probable cause.

  • Jane Smith

    open carry people…please stay home.

    We no need to brandish your 2nd amendment phallic symbols around.
    And no, they are not impressive.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner CNReporter

    Some dick stuck a ‘:’ at the end of my name and is posting as if he were me.

    His comment “CNReporter: September 29, 2010 at 2:15 pm On a second look at google maps…Looks like the police dept was right. I should have measured from the property line. I was WRONG again. whoops.”

    This just shows what cowards the opponents truly are.

  • http://... Ol’ timer

    The law is the law!? I’m from the beach but back years ago when I came here to Nebraska to college and wrestle I couldn’t believe what I saw on campus, students with rifles in the back windows of trucks which was permitted by law. I also like that all my neighbors have guns, I know the fact that the bad guys don’t know who does or does not have guns keeps the area safer. Having said that, I will say the people wanting to carry guns to teach others about gun laws are going about it 110% the wrong way. They know they are pushing something on good people that do not want it. I will also ask the gun folks to back off, setup at another fair in the area that you will get better results from, You are hurting people with your gun without firing your gun. You know what I’m asking. please do the right thing, GOD Bless you and stay safe.

  • James A.

    Yes you can bring as bible to an atheist event. You can also have a father and son go to a mother/daughter event at school. Society sets up niceties such as senior citizen discounts, ladies’ night, military discounts, and so on which may be illegal and seen as discrimination, but it’s just a way to be nice. I guess that is going away.

    I used to enjoy the St Patrick’s Day Parade until it was hijacked by gays proving their point. As much right as they have, I believe it is the wrong venue and they have muddled down what was a fine parade.

    On the same line, the fair has been running for generations and now out of the blue it has been similarly hijacked. No one can demand you stay away because that’s how the law works. But no one can demand that you be nice and respectful to the fair organizers either.

    I say carry your gun and shut up about it. Handing me a flyer is going to be harassment in my book.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner CNReporter

    Criminal, other than the Dalton Gang in 1892, can you cite any case since where someone has walked into a bank, openly carrying a firearm in a holster and robbed the bank?

    It seems the only people dumber than actual criminals are the people who oppose Open Carry.

    By the way, it didn’t work out so well for the Dalton Gang.

  • 2A Rights

    For those who assume this is some sort of political agenda, read the article! South Bay Open Carry participants were trying to simply attend the fair, and was meeting with fair leadership in order to educate them on people’s gun rights and prevent altercations, not cause them. The fair board started making this a political posturing issue when it tried to ban a completely legal act on public land.

    The only ones breaking the law here are the police and the fair board. While it was unfortunate that South Bay Open Carry had to threaten lawsuit, it was the only action that caused the fair board to obey the law. Appeals to logic, the law, and reason fell on deaf ears with that group.

  • Ben

    2A, Do you know if the board in question hates guns? Are they banning open carriers for THEIR political agenda?

    I see they have banned dogs, skateboards, and in line skates too. Last time I checked having a dog and a skateboard in public was legal. As a pet owner I do not feel violated nor will I bring a lawsuit. I’ll just go where I am welcome.

  • Tim Starr

    The board clearly has a severe case of safety-nazism, banning far more than guns – knives, sticks, weapons of any kind. I take it there will be no martial arts demos at the fair? That’s quite common at such street fairs in other cities.

    Again, the Second Amendment is a civil right. Dogs & skateboards may be legal, but they’re not protected as a matter of civil rights.

  • Dan

    It’s about fundamental civil rights, folks. This scenario set fifty years ago, here’s the news article and excerpts:

    “Black people cleared for Fair”

    “Despite initial warnings from Fair Board members and the Police Department that black people at the event would be arrested, civil rights volunteers made it clear that they will not stay at home, citing their right to be in public. . . .

    “The [fair] board is keenly focused on keeping their privately-run event ‘whites only’,said the Mayor, who is the City Council’s fair liaison. “The board recognizes that black people around white children and white adults for that matter in public events presents serious concerns. . . .

    “The civil rights volunteers’ threats of a lawsuit have been successful,” said the Police Chief, who met with fair coordinators Monday night to help craft a new policy which will allow black people at the event. “They burdened white people who have put this event on for 20 years with this fear of a lawsuit. These poor white people are scared.”

    “I deeply respect the rights of black people to be at the fair as long as they don’t infringe on the rights of others or violate the law,” he said.

    The Police Chief also requests that black people refrain from speaking to white minors without parental consent.

    A civil rights volunteer said, “I am not asking them to bend the law or give us any special priorities, we just want them to support the existing state, local and federal laws.”

  • MB Lawyer

    I have been watching this story with a lot of interest as I am an attorney who likes to sue. It is my living. So, I did a lot of research yesterday and have concluded that this is not a money maker for me, but what does concern me is Green’s and CNReporters’ willingness to mis-inform the public and perhaps bait some poor person into getting arrested and CONVICTED. Here is what I have found, and you’ll notice I will give credible sources, not opinions. First, read the gun blog that Green started himself to see that even the Open Carry folks are against him, calling him selfish and hurting their cause.

    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread...

    This makes sense. Open Carry is understable in the country, but definately not in an urban environment and definately not in a place that is crowded with families and young children. You say you are not looking for a fight. Since you have a choice in the matter, I’m telling you a judge and a jury will see it differently. There is no “self-defense” reason here…MB is one of the safest in the Country.

    The school zone that the City of MB has provided is correct. Read the definition of a school in the California Penal Code under PC 626. It reads, “any other place if a teacher and one or more pupils are required to be at that place in connection with assigned school activities.” Anyone who has gone to Catholic schools knows this to be true and the Archdiocese has confirmed it. Please stay out of this zone or risk getting a FELONY conviction on your record. Don’t let these people bait you.

    The Hometown Fair Board had every right to ban weapons from their event. It happens all over the State. It is clear that Green and CN bullied some old ladies which will not look good in front of a judge. See the articles on the Gilroy Garlic Festival and the Gay Pride Festval in Utah.

    http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-09-04/bay-are...

    http://www.slcgov.com/attorney/opinions/OP_ut...

    Lastly, CN keeps referring to some federal judge supporting his position as if to make him sound knowledgable. Sorry, but the HIGHEST COURT IN THE LAND (US Supreme Court) has said, “In regard to the scope of the right, the Court wrote, in a obiter dictum, “Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings. There decision had to do with ownership of guns, not displaying them in public because Chicago and Washington DC prohibited even owning a gun or keeping one in your home. Private property rights trump many constitutional rights. To akin this to race is an insult to people of color. People cannot pick was races they are. You can choose whether to bring a gun to a friendly environment or not.

    Please, please, please…do not let these weasels fool you. I love to defend a good cause, but these guys and con men, even going against their own cause. They would garner so much good will if they backed off, but you can tell, it is not in their character. They are in it for themselves and to hell with everyone that wants to enjoy the Fair. Best of luck to you all.

  • theaton

    To all those that say the fair is not the appropriate place. Who gets to decide what and where is appropriate, you, me, John Doe? Our wise founding fathers new who gets to decide, it is the individual, not the majority. Freedom and Liberty are not for the collective but for the person. If you think it is not appropriate don’t carry, just don’t try an tell me or others what to do unless we are violating your rights. I don’t think it’s appropriate that all the people that are willing to work are forced to pay the bills of all of those that aren’t willing to work but that doesn’t stop it from happening.

  • sam adams

    Riding a skateboard or inline skates is also likely a violation of the First Amendment right to assemble and free expression. It’s not the gun owners fault that skateboarders and inline skaters don’t care about their rights being infringed. It’s hard enough for gun owners to keep up with the plethora of paranoid people and groups that want to infringe the right to keep and bear arm, there is not time to protect the rights of others.

  • LawBidingCitizen2

    Stand up for your constitutional rights Cali. In my home state of michigan we had a similar situation with a local city trying to keep us from legally carrying at a festival. We stood our ground,and prevailed.
    The media said there would be problems,It would scare people away from comming to the event,scare children etc.. But that simply didn`t happen. The attendance was up,No problems at all, people hardly even noticed the open carriers. Keep up the good work my fellow Patriots.

  • Jarhead1982

    Middle August, Art’s Beat’s and Eat’s, a festival to be held in Royal Oak Michigan. Go back in time, open carry advocates notify more than one year prior to the even, the city council that the contract for the event banning firearms is in direct violation of the state pre-emption law.

    The city council stone walled, refuse to hear the advocates, and ignored the law as being gooberment and elitists, they didn’t have to follow the law, that was only for the peasants.

    Two months before the event, someone lets the media know about it, and the Royal Oak city council gets the public beating they deserved. They also rather than face a law suit, gave in TO THE LAW.

    The few people who ranted and raved that even if its a right it is not politically correct to exercise that right, ROTFLMFAO, therefore you all raving anti loonies should be banned from exercising your first amendment rights.

    By the way, just like the child’s fable Chicken Little, the sky didn’t fall, and nothing happened, a recurring event that has occurred 48 times when concealed carry laws were implemented, nothing happened, much to the chagrin of the anti gun extremists.

    The other thing that not one single anti in this discussion has ever proven, where is the risk?

    You see to prove there really is a problem, one must establish there is indeed a significant REAL risk supported by REAL data, otherwise your position has no credibility.

    The anti’s perceived problem, Law abiding citizens who are armed will harm us.

    Dont forget that US government and police studies show 80% of all violent crimes in the US are committed by career criminals/gang members (USDOJ National Gang Threat Assessment annual report 2009, or that 76-80% of all shootings are where both shooter and injured were both involved in a criminal act at the time of the shooting. But hey believing Chicago/NYC police reports and the government data is irrelevant eh?

    Well lets see, review of the Florida & Texas government databases on concealed carry show an average of 13 illegal deaths a year for 2.7 million licensee’s. Since there are what 8 million cpl licensed individuals in the US, this is approximately .0000045 deaths per licensee. This trend is similar in ALL concealed carry states.

    Heck the anti gun extremists even posted a report in 2009, stating that over 3 years, CPL licensee’s killed 137 people. What they “intentionally” forget to add is all the details of “justifiable homicides, etc, etc, etc, etc as we all know by hard facts, anti’s never, ever produced hard facts to support their position.

    Funny how 700k doctors as reported in 2001 JAMA report show 44k-98k people killed by medical malpractice or between .065 to .14 deaths per doctor.

    You do know that this means doctors are 14,000 to 31,000 times more likely to kill you than a person carrying concealed eh? Why aren’t you anti’s screaming to ban DOCTORS eh? After all, you progressive wackos believe that health care is a right, enshrined in the US Constitution and BOR. So since you feel one of the other rights that IS specifically affirmed in the BOR and US Constitution, we should expect you to treat that health care thingy, just like you treat the second amendment, or get branded as the biggest hypocrites on the planet eh?

    People who open carry in May issue states like United Socialist Republic of Kalifornika, where only the rich and privileged get a concealed carry permit, do so as the Nazi commadants wont issue a license based on their subjective anti gun view points.

    Lets see you anti gun nuts evidence that the open carry people are a different subgroup as concealed carry people, after all, they were denied their permits based on what law they broke, oh darn, NONE! So unless you can provide irrefutable data to change this, open and concealed carry data are relevant and the same.

    So those people carry openly, but you numbnuts scream when you see a gun carried legally, so here is a simple solution, change to a “shall issue state” and the guns get concealed, no more chicken little the sky is falling and it is politically incorrect to exercise your affirmed constitutional rights.

    That or prove the risk exists, but no, anti gun extremists never use real facts to defend their position, they only scream at, attempt to demonize, arrange partial truths or manufactured studies that meet the predetermined results they desired.

    No facts, no Risk,

    NO CREDIBILITY FOR YOU ANTI’S, sucks to be you!

  • Jim

    Matt put it best. The responsible gun owner knows that his/her gun is a dangerous weapon and not a toy. I haven’t given money to a political action group in years, but after I click “Submit” on this, I’m going to figure out which organization opposes these morons and give them what I can afford.

  • Tim Starr

    MB Lawyer: There are multiple definitions of “school” in the CSC section you’re citing, but you are quoting the wrong definition. E.g., the definition you cite includes adult schools, but the definition of a gun-free school zone is clearly restricted to K-12 schools. Adult schools are not included. By the definition you’re citing, a class field trip to a museum would make the museum and the entire route to and from it a “school,” and the gun-free school zone a 1,000-foot perimeter around not only the school and the museum but the path between them taken by the students.

    Your URLs didn’t come through, so I can’t verify the cases you describe. Presumably they were decided prior to McDonald decision that applied the Second Amendment to the states. Thus, your defense of local gun restrictions is akin to defending policies that racially segregated public schools prior to Brown v. The Board of Education.

    Commenters at CalGuns do not represent the CalGuns Foundation, which just issued a press release about a court settlement with the San Diego PD in which an open-carrier was awarded $40,000 for false arrest. I was also present at another street fair Albany, CA, in the early 1990s when an anti-abortion protester was arrested by the Albany PD. He sued for that, and won $10,000.

    As for the safety of the Fair, all its track record proves is that it was safe when weapons were not banned at the Fair. Banning weapons at the fair would completely change this, turning the entire event into a soft target full of defenseless prey for anyone to massacre.

    IOW, if it’s so safe, then why bother banning weapons? Why not do as Hermosa Beach did, which was to grant SBOC’s request for a booth at the fair so they could fully participate as an equal supporter of the event, instead of being excluded from the event? The Sobrante Stroll in El Sobrante, CA, also allowed an open-carry booth, without incident.

  • Jarhead1982

    Matt put what best, an emotional opine based on what facts or evidence, oh that’s right, none!

    Matt created a fantasy of theatre describing what HE felt, not what was said, much less written on this blog or proven, as all emotional shill plants are wont to do, nothing else.

    Lets see the legal description of brandishing, what does that mean eh Matt & MB Lawyer (thats rich). Please review the statements above and show which of the pro gun arguments above advocated brandishing.

    By the way, brandishing is not the weapon being in its holster. No brandishing, no unsafe exercise of affirmed rights and no arrest eh?

    So you are going to donate money, based on fantasy fiction and you call the gun advocates the morons, ROTFLMFAO!

    We know they are not a toy, we know what the facts are, we know what the risks really are, yet you ignore both and purpose to force your unsubstantiated fears onto everyone else.

    So what are your real names, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Pelosi, Bloomberg, Helmke, Hennigan, so few elitist, so much useless gun control. A good description of insanity is repeating the same failed solution over and over, oh darn thats gun control.

    By the way, you people do know that the US Supreme Court has ruled ten separate times that the police are under NO LEGAL LIABILITY TO PROTECT THE INDIVIDUAL. Isn’t that right Lawyer man eh?

    You people can prove the best response times are 4 minutes, average response times 15-20 minutes, yet you people infer the gooberment is responsible to protect the individual, ROTFLMFAO. So what you are inferring is that criminals have more rights than law abiding citizens, got it (extreme sarcasm)!

    If the police were indeed tasked to protect the individual citizens, then they really, really, really sucked at their job. Why in 2008 does the FBI UCR database show 1.38 million violent crimes reported, 381k involving a firearm, 12,252 murders, over 70k injuries to firearms and the USDOJ National Victimization annual report 2008 where 4.8 million violent crimes were not reported. No, the police 96-98% of the time are only there to draw the chalk line, take reports, and comment on how morally superior a dead raped woman is compared to a dead criminal.

    But hey you people have millions of real reports showing self defense doesn’t work, being prepared and planning by buying life, car, home owner or health insurance is insane, practicing for human or natural emergencies is insane as well, LOL, you people have real logic, lack of facts and mental issues!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner CNReporter

    If the Poster “MB Lawyer” were a real lawyer he would have identified himself along with his bar number.

    Instead, he is just another little troll from CalGuns.net which is a haven for anti Open Carry old ladies who think they are advancing 2nd Amendment causes by supporting gun control. By the way it is a crime to falsely claim to be a lawyer.

    If you would like to know what Chief Federal Judge Irma Gonzalez has to say about the US Supreme Court Heller decision which says that each of has the right to carry a loaded gun for the purpose of self-defense, you can read it yourself at the Federal Court Website at the link below. It is her opinion that matters and not the opinion of some anonymous troll claiming to be a lawyer.

    http://ia341315.us.archive.org/2/items/gov.uscourts.casd.308678/gov.uscourts.casd.308678.7.0.pdf

    Neither Harley Green of South Bay Open Carry nor I hide who we are. The troll who posted a message claiming to be a lawyer isn’t one. Nor, as he claims, do I advocate getting arrested.

    Anyone who has read my articles knows that I have often stated that it is far cheaper to pursue a Federal Civil Rights Lawsuit in Federal Court than it is to defend against a criminal prosecution in California’s corrupt courts.

    You might not like the Supreme Court decision but whom are you going to believe? The Chief Federal Judge in San Diego or the furry footed troll who calls himself a lawyer from Manhattan Beach?

  • Beach Bum

    ““The Open Carry threats of a lawsuit have been successful,” said Police Chief Rod Uyeda, who met with fair coordinators Monday night to help craft a new policy which will allow unloaded guns at the event. “They burdened people who have put this event on for 20 years with this fear of a lawsuit. These poor people are scared.”

    The villain in this piece is Rod Uyeda. This overpaid bureaucrat is part of the problem in California, not part of the solution. He and his buddies in the South Bay Chiefs Association have spent the last few decades trying to eliminate gun rights. (And no, Rod hasn’t gotten to walk around stiff legged for that long, but he policies and actions of the South Bay Chiefs go back that far.)

    While concealed carry is more effective as a crime deterrent (see John Lott), the open carry guys are at least bring the issue out for some attention.

    Rod Uyeda and the rest of the Chiefs could make this go away very easily by adopting an reasonable “shall issue” policy. Shall Issue, CCW’s are present in 42 of the 50 states. And the only result has been the drop in crime noted by the FBI and puzzled over by the media.

    But it looks like Rod would rather try to bully people than be an intelligent and responsive public servant, maybe worth at least half of his hyperinflated salary.

    The next question will Rod or one of his henchmen to something stupid enough to cost the citizens of Manhattan Beach some multiple of his $300,000 annual salary?

  • sam adams

    People will drive to the fair, park their cars and then walk to the fair amongst all the other cars that are driving to the fair and parking. They don’t give it a second thought. More children and adults are killed each year in automobile accidents than by firearms. Doctors kill more people every year than firearms but people don’t worry about going to a doctor. They hypocrisy of the anti-gunner’s knows no bounds.

  • Brenda

    I am not a Democrat and I DO support the right to bear arms but what this group is doing is disgraceful. Our country should not JUST be about rights but should ALSO be about ethics and morals which is something that not only the country has forgotten about but apparently this group has as well.

  • Susan Danylik

    It takes great strength of character to stand up for what is legally correct and what you believe in. Best of luck to South Bay Open Carry.

  • Aaron

    What a sad bunch of goons you Open Carry people are. Why don’t you exercise your “rights” in a forum that does not ruin the experience of a family centered fair?

    At the very least you’re going to terrify a bunch of mom’s and dad’s.

    Does that make you feel strong? Shame on you.

    Guns… great hobby choice, way to be part of the solution! Thanks for scaring citizens.

  • Brett

    Being a gun owner and a Manhattan Beach resident, I think I ll chime in here. I believe that if you have the proper permits, you should be able to carry a concealed weapon wherever you choose. However, to have normal people with “unloaded” weapons openly carried, serves NO purpose whatsoever. All it does is direct attention to the person carrying it, just like bad hair and tattoos do. This is clearly a case of people bringing their cause to the wrong forum as usual. Take your political statement to the Federal building, or better yet to your Congressman, who might actually be able to do something about it. Face it, people who are not used to being around guns are generally VERY insecure around them, unless that person is a law enforcement official. Of course you have the right to defend yourself and your family, but how does brandishing an unloaded weapon accomplish either. Take your rally to the OC, you’ll have plenty of dudes in Affliction and Tapout gear with huge raised trucks that will hoot and holler for your cause.

    I cant wait to laugh at you clowns at the fair, and if you hand me a flyer, I ‘ll politely hand it back.

    Brett

  • Brett

    Oh and we are just supposed to “assume” that these are all “responsible” gun owners. Nice…

  • AmericanPatriot

    There’s a school at the American Martyr location.
    http://www.americanmartyrs.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&id=7&Itemid=322

    They have preschool and K-8.
    Plus sunday school.

    Game over gun nuts. Game over.

  • http://www.vanimages.com Brad Herbst

    What the heck? It’s Manhattan Beach guys…not Compton. Why on earth would anyone bring a gun out to the fair?? I understand the whole thing about rights and all that but don’t be so self-centered. That’s all we need are little kids and their families running scared or not coming to the fair now with this story running, etc. As a vendor at the fair it upsets me even further as obviously us vendors need as much “people traffic” as possible and in general want folks to feel comfortable, safe and in good moods….again, it’s Manhattan Beach folks. ;)

    Bradley Van Herbst

  • Tim Starr

    Neither the Hermosa Beach Fiesta nor the El Sobrante Stroll were ruined or suffered any noticeable loss of foot traffic, despite the Open Carry booths and open-carriers at those events. The Fair Board is the only party creating any panic likely to alienate attendees.

  • Mossy Oak

    I own 4 guns and will probably be buying 2 more by the end of the year
    and even I wouldn’t want them at the fair if I was on the board. It’s not the right
    place guys; let’s choose our battles wisely and not
    make people and legislators in this state even more
    anti-gun than they already are. Stand down and direct your energy
    to Lee Baca and his ridiculous CCW policies. Stay safe

  • Jeff Stewart

    @Tim Starr

    You are not qualified to say that. You never took count nor do you know what was the projected turnout.
    Your self serving attitude puts a hug bias on your spin. Some well regulated militia wannabes you turned out to be.

    You really left a sour taste with your confrontational stance. Go celebrate your 2nd amendment publicity stunt elsewhere. You are like NAMBLA trying to exercise their free speech rights at the fair. (you may have the “right” but you are still a D-BAG).

    And you probably made the liability insurance for the event organizers more expensive due to your firearms stunt. What a favor you did.

  • Tim Starr

    Those who are qualified to opine on the turnout at the other two recent street fairs which had Open Carry booths have made no complaints about any reduction in turnout due to their failure to discriminate against open-carriers. Nor have they said anything about liability insurance costs going up.

    Trying to make it illegal for any private citizens to have the means to defend themselves, on the other hand, would’ve made the Fair completely liable for any harm that might have come to those who were unable to defend themselves effectively. If that had come to pass, the insurance costs for the Fair would definitely have gone up. Thankfully, that will not happen now that the illegal attempt to discriminate against open-carriers in direct violation of the Second Amendment has been thwarted.

  • Jennifer

    These guys so deceitful and full of themselves (Open Carry). Go to their website, southbayopencarry.org and read what their so called leader writes. Then, read ALL the blogs and forums and you’ll know just what a liar he is. There is no surprise. I’ve seen photos of him and saw his minute of glory on Channel 2. He needs to carry a gun to feel manly and brave. What a selfish nerd, caring only about himself and other nuts while he scares nice families and children.

  • Paul

    Glad to see that the grownups are beginning to show some spine in this country. Communists hate guns in the hands of freemen because they empower the individual. Hive mentalities don’t work when the state fears the individual. You libs are indeed Communists, you just haven’t been “switched on” yet. I see every argument in the book here that seeks to destroy the Constitution. We need more kids with Catholic educations, because government schooled kids don’t appear to understand what the 2nd amendment means, even though the language is very simple and elegant.

  • Paul

    >>Go celebrate your 2nd amendment publicity stunt
    >>elsewhere. You are like NAMBLA trying to exercise
    >>their free speech rights at the fair.

    O!M!G!!! A liberal has some nerve comparing a conservative group to NAMBLA? For real? NAMBLA? NAMBLA is *YOUR* people buddy, not ours! You milk and cottle NAMBLA because they seek to destroy traditional Christian morals, just like you.

  • JP

    GO OPEN CARRY! As a LONG TIME SOUTH BAY resident I applaud this group! It is time people stop being afraid of the law and start realizing that the Law is FOR the people!

    If I chose to go to this little fair I would UNDOUBTEDLY bring my firearm. Not because it shows how “tough” or “cowboyish” I am but to show this other so-called “beach Californians” that this is how we have been our whole lives. Free and proud.

    Just because you buy the big car, have the million dollar house and CLAIM to be from California doesn’t mean you represent the feelings of the homegrown beach people.

    Bravo open carry, Bravo! You are on the right track and I hope that more people begin to realize that the Police work FOR us and don’t dictate our actions.

    I for one will back support for this group. Remember, Guns don’t kill people, PEOPLE kill people!

    Californian born and raised

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-26553-LA-History-Examiner CNReporter

    As promised, South Bay Open Carry was at the Fair from 1:00-4:00PM. Not a single internet troll showed up to follow through on the threats they made.

    The SBOC wasn’t that hard to find. All the trolls had to do was look for the twenty armed men and women being interviewed by the press.

    And it can’t be a case of you couldn’t find them. Thanks to the Police Chief’s fanciful redefinition of what school grounds are, there was only a tiny sliver of Fair grounds available for Open Carry.

    Fortunately, that strip of land included the food booths whose offerings, though pricey, were far more tasty than the crow and feces our Open Carry opponents are eating now.

  • Anonymous

    If all legal and law biding citizens carried a gun .The U.S. would be a lot safer place to live .

  • BOB

    Think about it  !!!!
    The Second Amendment doesn’t say you can’t carry a loaded gun now does it . It says in plain ENGLISH , You have the right to CARRY.

  • Starborne

    Look at how many millions of peolpe that get killed by THUGS in the U.S. . And the Justice System protects them by telling us we don’t have the RIGHT TO CARRY . I always think that the DEFENDERS that defend the criminals are just as bad as the criminals themselves.That is a real sore spot with me .

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